Discussion/explanation of site economics?

So as I new user my husband and I have been trying to figure out the rules of this site.
My post here is in no way meant as a complaint, just an effort to understand why things are that they are (and still possible...how(?), as we arent sure we fully understand).

Basically we dont get the economics of the site.  I mean I get why there is the points system for purchasing items, and the actual mechanics around much of it make sense, but there are some things that we just dont get.  For instance:

1) Why does the site charge a 30 coin "download cost" to download an attachment.  That cost seemingly doesnt go anywhere except the site which already has the ability to "mint" whatever it wants.   This cost doesnt seem to have any purpose other than to frustrate users as it rewards no one.  Why charge the users on top of what the poster is asking?
I could totally understand were this real money and the site was getting a portion of that, but this is made up currency that the site has in unlimited supply.  Is there a valid reason for this?

2) Why take a cut of the posters sale of a pattern/attachment?  It appears that 30% is taken away by the site as a cut of the sale of an attachment as well.  This means that if a DIY.0 posts an attachment for 50 coins, that any purchaser will pay 80 coins (50 for download, 30 for "cost").  Out of this the original poster will only see 35 coins (50 - 30%) and the site will claim 45 (30 download cost + 30% cut).

I mean these numbers are worse than eBay profits!
Now it appears that the mods may always give a +10 coin bonus so it works out to be bit more even on a 50 coin sale, but still more out of the users favor with higher sales.

What happens to all this "lost" money?  Do the mods get a cut of it in addition to their ability to freely download?  Not that I am denying them for their efforts, the economics of it just make no sense based on the information presented in any of the FAQ/tutorials.

It would seem that if the site were worried about trying to take away users coins at a higher rate than they would just simply issue less coins. For instance, if you want to take away 30% of all users net coins, why not just limit all rewards and sale prices by 30% instead of introducing all these arbitrary costs associated with selling and buying.  

Again, this might make sense if we were talking real $$ here which was flowing to 3rd parties.  But, even then the amount this seems balanced *against* the user seems very high.

To stress again, this is not a complaint as much as an observation.  It doesnt appear too difficult to get coins on the site by being moderately active and contributing small amounts, it is just bewildering.

Another question is related to the allowed sale costs of attachments:

3) It seems to me that if you are a higher level DIY.user that you have been around for a while and probably have a lot of coins from just normal activity.  It seems almost counter-intuitive to allow these higher users to sell their patterns for 5-10x+ the cost of what new users are allowed.  On the contrary, it would make more sense for new users to be rewarded more for contributing to the site.  Why would a new user choose to sell a pattern/book/whatever they have when they are going to be rewarded only 50 coins (minus 30%!).
Why wouldnt they instead horde those until they reach higher levels where they can choose to put them out there for 300 or 400 coins a sale?

Why should "Pattern X" be valued more because DIY.5 posted it instead of DIY.1 ?  The pattern is the same regardless and technically it is discrimination to not value it the same per person. (I do hate to use that word, and it is a bit hyperbolic - but think of this in real life.  What if a flea market told an 18 year old they cant sell their same wares to people at the prices the 30 year olds can, or a black girl has to sell for lower prices than a white.  These tactics would be illegal in the real world and for good logical - if not ethical - reasons.  Once again, please note I am not accusing the site of this, just pointing out the logic in hopes of a rational explanation).

It seems like many of the mechanics of the site are there to do a few things:
a) Throttle users from sharing/benefiting by arbitrarily reducing their rewards

b) Penalize newer users more.  I do believe that long time users (or at least higher contributors) should get some benefits, but wouldnt it seem better that for instance instead of getting 30% taken away on a sale that amount falls by 1-2% per level?  So that a DIY.5 say would only have 5% taken from a sale?  Even better, dont take away any % on a sale and instead grant higher level users a bonus percentage.  So a DIY.0 who posts for 50 would just get 50, but a DIY.5 is given a site bonus of 15% on every sale.  This makes users feel good and seems much more logical!

c) While Ive been discussing more about coins, the credit system seems to encourage a lot of nonsense posting.  I can see from just a few hours here that people just spew out "thanks" and "good job" on threads simply to build credit.  Most legitimate conversation about a topic just gets buried (or doesnt happen in the first place) because people just want to click, click, click to build up their credit.

I dont want to go off on a tangent on this or other factors.  I also want to reiterate one final time that these seems like an overall healthy community with friendly people.  I do however believe it feels hampered by confusing and arbitrary rules and many technical issues.

Im hoping that I can get some responses from long time users and moderators.  My understanding is that the moderators probably have very little control over much of what I have discussed here, although they might have a good understanding of the how and why.

It is difficult for a new user to come in and go through dozens of historic posts that date back many years and always know what is current and what changes the site has gone through in the past to get where it is today.

I would perhaps like to make a new sticky post to help new users, but before I begin on that I myself would like to have a better understanding of everything.

Thank you for your responses!

greenteas

BoingBoing 2021-3-15 02:35
First, I have to state that I dont know each and every detail about the sites workings, and I don ...

BoingBoing

No worries about the @ :loveliness: I get notified if you hit the reply button, thats this sites version of quoting.

So, about the actual finances... Its quite a touchy subject, and its quite triggering for some people. There are sites where you can check on estimated ad revenues (currently thats the only way this site is financed), which can give an estimation. Well, more or less - these dont factor in adblockers, which most people use these days. Adblockers basically negate the ad revenue. There are costs, as youve mentioned, that come with operating, such as licencing the forum engine, securing the domain name, paying for the server, etc. which are not obvious for an average user. And its hard to explain why ad revenue is important when the first thought is that all must be the owners personal income, all while never questioning what keeps the lights on. Displaying that a click generated x money would result in a smaller rebellion over how the owner of the site gets rich by exploiting the users (regardless of how much truth - or the lack of it - is behind it). Lately, there was a smaller incident, where people were making accusations about cancelling the daily bonus is the way the site pushes them to buy credits with Paypal... While there is a Paypal recharge button, that is not an option anymore (theres currently not an option to purchase credits with real money), I was told, but it looks like people are just happy about complaining. I have no idea how much actual revenue the site generates, and how much goes towards the costs, and I think its none of my business, so Id prefer not to talk about it anymore. Not geared towards you, but Id like to add this: my only advice for those who are complaining about the ads is to get an adblocker. Its free, and its useful everywhere. I watch a lot of youtube, and its a blessing I dont have to skip over 20 ads in a 10-minute video.

On the topic of anonymity, I know it sounds like an empty phrase, but it is for protecting users. There have been incidents in the past, where users got doxxed because of their activities here. By hiding the names in the more sensitive areas, theres another layer of protection besides perceived internet anonymity. People who might not be that tech-savvy dont really think about the possible consequences of registering using their real name or email address. While a JonSmith would be hard to trace, but a JeanMaeDinglemeyer is a low hanging fruit. There are some users who use the same nickname for multiple sites, and there might be one, that has their contact or real data, and from then it doesnt take too much to find them. Forced anonymity has its downside, but overall it has more benefits. Its better to be safe than sorry.

And lastly, yes. Whenever theres a change, even if its a completely neutral one, therell always be someone who cries bloody murder. Generally speaking, the first couple of replies can change whether a topic is being viewed in a positive or negative light in any discussion (enough to just check on any Reddit board to see how this works in practice). Still speaking generally, complaints are louder than thank yous, so youll notice those 10-20 very strong critiques more than the 1000 silent acceptance (see the countless sad/angry messages about the cancellation of the daily login bonus, and the lack of positive messages about how the hourly bonus got raised at the same time). Add into the mix of the traditional "MoDZ aRe gaY" attitude thats prevalent in all free forums (luckily we have less of this attitude here). As for the past happenings... I cant be completely neutral about it and provide an objective point of view. I have some very hard feelings for a since long gone person, who was a textbook bully, and that made my perception very skewed. What I can tell is that the beginnings were as chaotic as it gets, and during the sites 12 years run, there have been some changes that were admittedly communicated badly, and there were some very bad decisions too, that since got corrected. But I wouldnt call them tyrannical. In hindsight, most of these things could have been done differently. Or they proved to be a viable thing instead of the harbinger of doom. There is no one-size-fits-all solution, and at this point, any changes made would hurt or offend at least some users. I can imagine no changes are made on a whim, theyre thought through, and theyre not aimed to make everyones lives miserable, and definitely, its not something that happens on the regular. But then, Im not part of any of these processes, so Im just guessing again. Sometimes I wish the site would magically turn into a private tracker. That way a lot of hiccups this points system has could be solved, but that would be too much of a change, and itd result in an entirely different site.

BoingBoing

First, I have to state that I dont know each and every detail about the sites workings, and I dont want to spread misinformation, its just guesswork on my part. Second, Im pretty sure Ill get a whirlwind of negative comments about whatever Im going to write, but let it be.

This site runs on a Discuz! engine. An integrated feature of this engine is this point system, along with the ratings, rewards and site taxes, so youll find these on each and every Discuz! based forums. Its something you cant really switch off. You can apply some cosmetic changes, and add or take away modules, but cant change core features. True, that the sites administrators (not moderators) or people with access to the codes can change the amounts within some limitations. I believe (this is a guesswork part) the site tax goes towards the bonuses the system gives to users, and the points everyone can spend for rating posts or replies. Technically, the site can generate an infinite amount of gold, I guess, but there are some very specific numbers hidden in the system by default (Im an IT-type, I like to poke around), so I suspect its not the case. Another possible scenario could be that the sites "income" gets some extra storage space or other kinds of benefits from the engines owners. Its a Chinese engine, and Chinese sites and apps often have this reward points system, where you can, say get a kilo of apples for free if you accumulate enough points. This case is unlikely, but then, Im just speculating. Rest assured, we dont get a cut from the sites "income" (we do get gold coins as compensation once a month, but it depends on our performance, and often its less than what you can make by fulfilling a single bounty request, or just spamming "Thanks for sharing" for the same amount of time we spend with moderating), and we pay for the attachments that are not in our respective sections. We also dont have authority on how the rules are made or the power to change them, thats entirely up to the sites owner. Were simply here to check the content and help people out.

While it seems unfair for lower lever users, the contribution/points/levels system is meant to be both an incentive for participating in the sites doings, both a filter to cut down on trolls, spammers, or people of bad intent. Yes, I agree it could be easier, but it is not really that unfair. It is not impossible to level up, and accumulate gold, but it does take time and effort. Which, considering the ultimate reward is getting access to otherwise paid content for not spending actual money on it, is not that of a bad deal. I know it is possible to source materials other ways from other places, but that often takes way more time and way more effort, and a lot of times, youre redirected to multiple pages from the original site in the process.

You compared this to a flea market, where everyone is equal from the beginning, but its more like a company job. You start as a low-paid intern (DIY0), and you keep climbing the company ladder (level up) and get a better salary. A lot of communities similar to ours have an inner economy and a level system, sometimes with stricter rules than here. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but it actually helps with user retention and growth. Users spend more time to get points/credits/levels/etc. -> users get more invested in the site -> users contribute more materials -> more new users (this is not something I just came up with, theres a psychological aspect to the interwebs). I realize it might sound arrogant, pretentious or otherwise offending, but thats the reason some sites get hundreds of thousands of users, and some only a few hundred. There are a lot of these blogs that share patterns, but they dont have a massive userbase, and they dont have a huge variety or a well-organized content. Because people dont return frequently, dont feel the need to interact with the page, and dont feel to contribute to the contents. Having a site economy system is an incentive to do all these.

I agree that some prices are ridiculously high, but its up to the uploader. Ive seen some users who were calling people greedy in a very public post when they are still asking 600 for a small pattern, knowing that nobody will know. Im not judging. If you spent your real-life money on something, youre going to give it away for practically free here, its your right to ask as much virtual currency for it, as you think appropriate. If it is ethical or is the good thing to do, thats a different question. This points system is in effect for a few years now, and there are users who charged crazy amounts as early as 2012, I dont think it will change, or if it can be retroactively changed. I can imagine there would be a bigger uproar tho if the sites owner decides to change the maximum price to, say, 100 overnight, mostly coming from the users who are selling their attachments for more than that.

As for the system generates a slough of the same copy-paste comments... thats unfortunately true. In an ideal scenario, everyone could just post a few threads every day, or participate in the technical discussions in the tips and tricks sections, and get their points that way. But not everyone has access to new material to share, or not an expert crafter, or dont speak English to effectively participate in a discussion, so the most effective way they found is to spam threads with the same comment (to be fair that really is the most effective way). Its my pet peeve when people are doing this in the Post New Threads section (we cant monitor it 24/7, and sometimes a thread mistakenly set to be pay per view, and these times, the commenters lose gold), or when they reply "Very beautiful, thanks for sharing" to a Free Talk thread. It is encouraged to post in English and to write meaningful content, but then, its impossible to enforce this at our current capacity. The only control we have is user reports for duplicate replies. I believe theres an option to switch off the replies for boards or remove the reply permission from users, both of which would be catastrophic. Its sad to say, but its better to accept the fact that replies are for points, ratings and sales are for appreciation when it comes to diaries and patterns. Conversations are better to be kept either in the designated chat areas.

As for guides, there are some stickied threads that are up to date, cover most of the topics and contain links to the important guides. Im really glad you were reading them! Its much easier to find your way here if you are familiar with the sites workings. Unfortunately, theres a number of people who couldnt find any of these, and a request for a new guide is really rare.

I hope I could answer some of your questions, and apologies if something wasnt clear. Its 2 am here, so Im not really at my peak now.

randicat

Sheesh!!! Another good topic and answers! I never knew any of the background on this site and am appreciating learning more! Thank you!

Estela 56

gracias por esta discusion, son cosas que yo tambien me preguntaba

bighair

BoingBoing 2021-3-14 12:35
First, I have to state that I dont know each and every detail about the sites workings, and I don ...

@BoingBoing - I really appreciate the detailed answers.

For full disclosure, this account is actually for my wife...she is the one into crochet and any work posted from it and patterns, etc are hers.  She is a bit overwhelmed about getting into a forum like this.  Though not a technical idiot, Im actually an IT guy and I have a very long history with file sharing sites (going back to the 1980s BBS) so Im the one who has been reading through everything here as this particular system (and obviously the site specific rules and processes) are not one I had a lot of familiarity with.

Ive also been the one asking most of the questions so far (after discussing a lot with her) about how and why the site works the way it does.

Im by no means bursting in here screaming and shouting to change things - though there are certainly many things I think could be changed (ofc, not knowing history and the whys of things means I may be wrong about some of this).  I agree and accept almost all of what you have stated, though I think there is probably more at work here and I think you touched on it though maybe dont know the full scope.  Or perhaps you do and it is verboden to talk about?  

Hopefully, we can just discuss openly without any animosity as Im really not looking to force changes.  But, in one of the many tutorials/FAQs I came across it did say to post all suggestions and they were looked kindly upon! :)

It would seem that the site owners have an incentive to keep users here and clicking lots.  I would think that every time a page is reloaded (at the least) more ads are also loaded which translate to revenue for the site owners.

Now I dont know how many users are here and what the ad revenue generated by this (objectively relatively obscure niche site), I suppose it could be substantial.  Many many file sharing sites out there charge fees of one sort or another to gain status for their users.  Some charge a flat out monthly/yearly fee others you can pay for points/ratio to be able to download.  Im sure some of these sites generate profits, others I know use the majority of this money simply to keep the lights on to pay for hosting and bandwidth costs.

Personally, I dont think this is something to shy away from talking about.  I believe that whoever is running this site has a right to collect ad revenue to help offset costs and perhaps even to make a profit.  While we all hate ads, most people will obviously take them instead of having to directly pay to access the site.

So my thinking about the site economics (initially) was that let us say, for instance that the site provider (Cloudflare hosting I believe) charges X amount for their hosting plan, or perhaps X amount per MB stored.  Every time a user posts an attachment that is say 5MB, that counts against PinDIYs storage quota (or increases the quota which means they need to pay more the more the site hosts).  By charging a "download cost" of 30 coins they could be saying:

"In the time it takes you to earn these 30 coins, you would have generated .08 cents in ad revenue which helps offset the cost of us hosting this download."

That seems logical, but it also seems logical that if the user already has to pay 30,50,500 for the download to the user that they have already spent their time clicking.  Perhaps it is just a site mechanic of Discuz! and a tradition more of Chinese sites, but it definitely seems engineered in a way that appears "greedy" and detrimental to the user.  Even if it is just optics, I know from first hand experience it is possible to design the reward system which "feels" a lot nicer though still generates clicks, etc.

Again, I cant fault the site owners for wanting to make some money off their efforts.  I just feel there is no reason to hide it.  We all know the realities of this so if thats the case I think the discussion can/should be more open.

I think the bigger problem comes with the limits on selling prices.  Whether a flea market or a company, the value of product/work X is still that value regardless of who is generating it.  You can argue that an entry level employee will only be paid $20/hour to generate a product and an executive generating that same product would be making $70/hour, but those are the rates paid by the company - not those by those who consume the product (their customers).  In the same way it should seem that the site itself would do better to reward the longer term users without penalizing the entry level employees.

I do definitely agree that some type of reward/ratio type system help retain users and foster a community, but Im not sure I agree that specific way is the best way to get it done.

Again, Im new - and it looks like the rules have changed here several times over the past few years and maybe they are still trying to find a balance.  As for me (or my wife) Im sure that she can accrue enough points to download what she needs.  As you say it is not incredibly unfair, nor difficult - especially considering the alternative of going out and spending real money.  That however doesnt make it "fair" or even logical.

In short, I just appreciate the communication and understanding how and why things are working the way they are.  It does seem a fault in the system that I realize once you upload a pattern/etc, it gets moderated and none of the other users know who actually posted the pattern.  This means that users cannot be called out specifically for charging such high prices.  I think if a level 5 wants to charge 500 gold for a simple pattern download they should have the right to do it, but it might help that the community knows who it is.

Economically, I dont see most people coming here trying to download 20 things a week.  Therefore they can probably get enough coins in short enough order for what they would like.  But if this was a free market, these rules definitely fall in favor of the higher ups.  It will be a vicious cycle where they will be forced to sell at higher prices if they want to afford what the others are selling.  

Again, I might be wrong.  From my poking around the site and reading some of the history it definitely seems like a large contingent has been unhappy with these decisions.  It also seems there may have been a more tyrannical rule in the past and things couldnt be openly discussed.

I hope I am not overstepping my bounds and that this sort of friendly discourse is allowed (even welcome) to try and better things.  I realize that most of this will either go to the user base (preaching to the choir!) or hopefully the moderators.  Again I realize the mods dont have the power to change things - but I also dont know how much you all have the ears of the owners (at all) and if they have any interest or process for actually hearing from their user base.  It could be they are just in this for remuneration and they will simply do whatever maximizes that for them.

In any case - the way I see it is it is a service, a free service, and one I wouldnt have otherwise, but that doesnt mean we cant hope for improvement.

thanks again for your insights.

(p.s. I apologize for calling you out via @ but I dont know how notifications work that well yet for posts responses.  It doesnt seem that I can technically quote you, so I dont know how otherwise you might know I was responding to you directly).

Inc1961

Thank you for this discussion.  I’m off to research as
ADblockerrs as the advertising is very annoying and graphic in nature. Not at all my taste and take away from enjoyment of the site.

ghiromi

Hi bighair! ;)

you said that youre a new user and youre already DIY.5...... well, I envy you because I just turned level DIY.6 and registered like 4 years ago, on 5 march 2017. I contribute a lot to the site and still struggle to level up to match my 450 threads and my credits stuck to 1274 for quite some time now.
Things work in mysterious ways, apparently.

Love your post and agree with you. Thanks for speaking about things the way you did.
:D :D :D

TheKnitter

Great discussion, glad its here and allowed.  Ive been here several years and have leveled up to DIY6 mostly by uploading things.  My MAIN complaint (yes, complaint) is what I consider to be greed by the uploaders.  I have lots of GC but have to be desperate to pay 200 GC for a pattern (and many charge more!).  I know its not real money but still - seems greedy to me.  If you look at my posts I try not to post anything for more than 100 GC (I think I may have posted a collection of six patterns for 150 GC but I actually cringed as I put the amount on the post but it did cost me a lot of real $$$!).

I believe the admins and moderators are basically volunteers (getting paid GC the time they spend is certainly not enough IMHO).  I applaud them for the work they do and the heat they take when we complain - as mentioned, they dont actually control the inner workings of the site.